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I think I'm starting to lose it.
I make corporate LOB apps and it is up to me what framework / pattern I want to use. For a good 5 years there it was ASP.Net. Now I can use SilverLight (with or without MVVM), MVC or ASP.Net.
And what about data access? I can use ADO.Net, Entity FrameWork, LINQtoSQL, Subsonic, My own POCO classes, Ria Services, WCF Services ect...
Just for sh*ts and giggles I did my last project, a web application with about 10 pages and 6 database tables all using my ADO.Net DataAccessLibrary that I wrote 8 years ago and standard ASP.Net. I still got application done in no time, the users were stoked cause I automated a lot of sh*t for them and it was a huge success. To top it off, the newest browsers are so fast, you can't even tell the difference between a full postback and a AJAX request on my intranet. AJAX is almost becoming irrelevant.
Oh and BTW, I have been investing some time in learning MVC 3. WTF, it feels like old school classic ASP. I guess it is cool, if you want to make something like face book. But for LOB apps, it isn't any easier than ASP.net...
I'm done ranting...
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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Because not every technology/method is appropriate to solve every problem.
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Because "corporate LOB" is a small part of the domain.
I are Troll 
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ToddHileHoffer wrote: ranting...
In future kindly take it to The Lounge[^] where it belongs.
The best things in life are not things.
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You need to choose the one you are most comfortable and familiar with.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it.
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Probably the wrong place to post this: lounge would have been okay.
Tend to agree with you anyway: Have been using LINQToSql and EF but Ado.Net is just as good. All that happens is that you add another layer of complexity to waht should be reasonably simple. I wouldn't use anything but Asp.Net for LOB or corporate apps: they demand functionality and speed and Asp.Net delivers.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
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You have to choose what best fits your requirements / skill sets.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it.
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Abhinav S wrote: You have to choose what best fits your requirements / skill sets.
This makes sense. I have been doing ASP.Net for almost 10 years, so I can write these applications in my sleep. I have spent a two months learning / working on a silverlight MVVM application. I think the user interface is a lot nicer. My users, have only complained about the silver light updates. Many of them are using older PCs so the install isn't as fast as it should be.
Also, I find the MVVM programming rather difficult. All of the data binding "magic" hidden from me as the developer makes wrapping my head around things seem more difficult. I know it takes a little bit more work to set the property of control rather than data binding, but is nice to be able to set a break point and see exactly what is being set...
Really, the only reason for me to use something other than ASP.Net 4.0 at this point is to improve my resume.
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Really, the only reason for me to use something other than ASP.Net 4.0 at this point is to improve my resume.
Yeah that is a good approach.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it.
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In addition to evident natural reasons, like different approaches are to be used in different situations and profitability of making users pay multiple times for the same thing, there is a fundamental one - it is impossible to do anything right first time and it is impossible to fix anything thanks to legacy applications. Thus, everyone starts anew.
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But not only that!! At one time, you could learn VB, for example, by reading two books - a programming (syntax) manual and a Programmers Reference (HowTo) manual. Those days have now gone. By the time the books come out now, they are usually a release behind. So you have to use the web to find things out.
That's when you discover there is no one place to go to find all the latest information. So you have to read blogs by ScottGu, Hanselman, Haacke, Sanderson, the Microsoft Development Team, and any other blog site that wants to put their 2 pennyworth into the arena. I think the finding of information on the web takes up most of my time when I program these days.
The other problem is that there are now so many classes in ASP.NET that can be used to achieve a particular result. I have given up on trying to use the Help text within ASP.NET. Because of the complexity, they can't give full examples; they would just take up too much space. So it is next to useless. That leaves asking questions on Forums; and that presents a new set of problems. You ask your question and then get two, three ways to achieve it, none of which are ways you understand. So you start searching the web, again.
I'm 68, retired now, and trying to learn ASP.NET, MVC3, EF Code First and C# at home on my own. I wrote my first program in 1962-3, in what language I can't remember, and I have been programming on and off ever since. But I find that the modern frameworks and languages appear to be much more complicated in some ways than they need to be, but so much easier to use in others. Take EF Code First, for example. I think that is a wonderful piece of work.
That's enough from me. I've got an event calendar to code.
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I both agree, and sympathise!
Examples are the best didactic method invented.
"Help files" without them are rendered "Hindrance files".
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Yes, I've looked at that one, but I can't afford to buy things nowadays, except my operating system and ASP.NET, of course. Iy's just what I want, but I will have to make do with a free one off the web with lesser function.
Thanks for your nice comment.
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xiecsuk wrote: I'm 68, retired now, and trying to learn ASP.NET, MVC3, EF Code First and C# at home on my own. I wrote my first program in 1962-3, in what language I can't remember, and I have been programming on and off ever since. But I find that the modern frameworks and languages appear to be much more complicated in some ways than they need to be, but so much easier to use in others. Take EF Code First, for example. I think that is a wonderful piece of work.
Wow, and I thought I was an old codger! I've been at this since around 1976. You've REALLY been 'round the block!
My take on the original question is this: pick whichever technology that suits your purpose and become highly proficient with it. Learn multiple technologies, sure, if you NEED to. In my case I found that building my own SIMPLE library around ADO.Net to get at SQL Server is all I need to develop my commercial applications. They're blindingly fast and my coding is consistent from one module to another. Sure, there exist tons of other ways I *could* do it and if I was just trying to pad my resume with a lot of terminology I might do that - but I'm focused on building a product, not on being able to rattle off a list of technologies that I "know".
What I'm interested in hearing is "Wow" coming from my clients when they see how elegant and fast and ACCURATE the application I just wrote for them is. I don't think any of them care what tool (how old or new) I used was to craft their application. Who cares that I wrote the whole thing in assembly? <grin> (Actually it's all in C# but you get my drift!)
True craftsmen are more focused on the output of their tools than they are on constantly having the latest and coolest tools to impress their friends. I figure that with VS2008, SQL Server and Active Reports (my main tools) I'll be able to continue to craft stuff for many years that can run in many places. I'm off the upgrade train with my tools for now. I got code to write. Later!
-Max 
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Max Peck wrote: VS2008, SQL Server and Active Reports
.  Those are the tools I use too! I also wrote my own orm tool and dal library (similiar to Subsonic, but works with Access dbs too).
- S
50 cups of coffee and you know it's on!
Code, follow, or get out of the way.
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I am really impressed with Active Reports 6. I have a little bit of exposure to Crystal Reports and found the Visual Studio integration of AR6 to be outstanding. It was customizable so I could boilerplate things the way I prefer to do it and, baby, does it ever work!
-Max
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I love ActiveReports! Hasn't been a case yet I can't handle, since I can do everything in code when I need to. The deal breaker with Crystal Reports for me was getting the damn thing installed on clients computers (that, and the sh*tty interface, and...well you know...). No problem with Active Reports - only 2-3 dlls included in your setup script, and wham bam thank you ma'am, you're done! Posted a rant about it awhile back, when I was more coherent.  http://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.aspx?msg=3322855#xx3322855xx[^]
- S
50 cups of coffee and you know it's on!
Code, follow, or get out of the way.
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Steve,
Agree completely. AR6 was worth every penny I paid for it. My design philosophy is to keep things as simple as possible and AR6 fit in to that perfectly. I'm impressed with the functionality that's built in to the report viewer and how the whole thing just works in to the Visual Studio environment in general. It really is designed the way a reports system should be, IMHO. With the "click once" deployment in Visual Studio the whole thing delivers to the target and just works. Best system I've seen in a long time. When we start selling my application to small businesses, my deployment group isn't going to have too long a list of things to do to set it up. I love it.
I almost went with a copy of VS2008 Professional because of the built-in Crystal Reports. Fortunately I was able (through a friend) to obtain a student version for evaluation. The designer included in the VS version of Crystal absolutely sucked. If it had come with the designer that it does with XTAL 11 Pro or something I might have gone that way at the time but then after seeing how AR6 integrated into the design environment with standard CS class modules working like any other custom control ... then the usefulness of the fully-integrated designer and the classy looking viewer - I was done. Worth paying for. So I just kept VS2008 Standard and turned it into a "Pro" version with AR6. Between those and SQL Server 2008 Express the application has turned out far better than I'd hoped without breaking my bank in the process.
-Max
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I couldn't agree with you more. I developed a library of routines using VB when I was contracting, that allowed me to code quickly and accurately. I also made sure the permies I was working with adopted my techniques. That meant that we could quickly and easily update each others code to add new function, and maintain them quickly if the need arose. It also meant that you became very proficient in their use. I remember one client I had just started to work for asked me to look at some code that was extracting data out of an Oracle database of 23 million, yes million, records. It was taking over 24 hours to calculate an aggregated monthly figure. After 30 minutes experimentation, I had it running and giving an answer in 5 minutes. I remained at that company as a contractor for the next 7 years and wrote them around 15 business critical systems that saved them hundreds of thousands of pounds over that time. One system I wrote saved them around 25 thousand pounds per month in penalty payments.
Still, that's enough of me bragging; the World Snooker final is about to start it's final session.
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> Just for sh*ts and giggles I did my last project, a web application with about 10
> pages and 6 database tables all using my ADO.Net DataAccessLibrary that I wrote 8
> years ago and standard ASP.Net.
Out of curiosity what kind of Unit Testing did you provide with that?
-Rd
Hit any user to continue.
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None. I have never done any unit testing. I test my methods as I code and have actual users do user acceptance testing. We also have a project manager write up a test plan with users. I've never done any unit testing, nor do I plan on it in the near future.
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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ToddHileHoffer wrote: None. I have never done any unit testing. I test my methods as I code and have actual users do user acceptance testing. We also have a project manager write up a test plan with users. I've never done any unit testing, nor do I plan on it in the near future.
That's what I figured, and that's fine.
The reason I asked is that I feel you'd probably find those the usefulness of various different frameworks is driven by the variety of things you want to do. If you are churning out roughly the same type of app in roughly the same way, if you aren't looking at Automated Unit Tests or Automated Acceptance Tests then yes, you'll work quite happily with the same tools you've used for years.
If you try to move into those other areas you'll find you hit limitations in your toolset, and you'll find that some of those other frameworks have something to offer.
So, by all means keep doing what works for you, but don't dismiss the tools and frameworks that you don't use. It may be that they solve a problem that you are not faced with.
Best of luck
-Richard
Hit any user to continue.
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What is really frustrating is that by the time I get around to finally learning and implementing a particular framework or technology Microsoft is already on to the next one. When I find bugs or issues in the existing framework the attitude is one of "why are you still using that?" instead of "we'll fix it." They are moving too fast and leaving many developers who are doing more complex projects with longer lifecycles behind.
Sean
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