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Colin Angus Mackay wrote: why not start with assembler programming. Or even flipping switches and manually setting each bit to a one or zero
Gosh. That's how I did start. God help you if you set a bit wrong, you had to go back and start all over again.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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I do.
But I don't think that web abs in Java or C# are good in order to start programming.
That would be a bit to extreme I think 
But what program language would you think of?
Cheers
You have the thought that modern physics just relay on assumptions, that somehow depends on a smile of a cat, which isn’t there.( Albert Einstein)
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Fatbuddha 1 wrote: But I don't think that web abs in Java or C# are good in order to start programming.
You sound a bit elitist. Java and C# are excellent lanugages.
What exactly is wrong with Java or C#?
Fatbuddha 1 wrote: But what program language would you think of?
C# - The type of application is immaterial so long as he is taught well about application design.
There is zero point in starting the guy in one language if the language that will put food on his table is another. All you are doing is making him starve for a while. Now, if he wants to cross into something that actually requires C++ then it would be perfectly fine for him to learn C++.
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I think you got me wrong. I do think that C# and Java are excellent languages, but not in the case of learning.
It was more ment in the case of web ablications!!
I don't think, that a web designer will profit a lot when he doing web abs, when he want to learn programing.
And I think that you have to be more strict in programming C++ than in Java or C#. For example the garbage collector!!
I just think that if you can program C++ than you are quickly able to learn other languages as C# , Java, Perl, Python, Fortran.
Or what ever comes in your live. Because they are more or less related on C, C++, don't they?
So as you can see, the original question was from a web designer asking for opinions, what he should go to, when he wants to learn programing.
Cheers
You have the thought that modern physics just relay on assumptions, that somehow depends on a smile of a cat, which isn’t there.( Albert Einstein)
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Here's an opinion:
Fatbuddha 1 wrote: I just think that if you can program C++ than you are quickly able to learn other languages as C# , Java, Perl, Python, Fortran.
This statement is utteryly ridiculous. The concepts of programming languages transfer from one language to the next. It doesn't really matter which language you learn first. The concepts still apply to all of them.
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Thats true, but I think that in C++ you have to be more strict in the way you are implementing stuff.
But that is my opinion. Also the main point of my statement was not just the learning of concepts, also if you are implementing on any of those language that I mentioned you will recognize that they are familiar to C++. Such that you can adopt things more easier. And as I was saying above I don't think that C++ is the best language or something like that. I just learned programming on Pascal and then got to C++. Which I think is not good, because the guy who started this post wants to learn a language where you can do certain things. And with Pascal it is most of the time a pain, in my opinion.
So I think you got me kind of wrong, because I referred not just to the concepts, also the the easy going part if you switch to other languages, because the syntax is quiet familiar. But if you compare, lets say Java with C#, which are modern languages, that the diffrent is bigger. than C++ vs Jave or C++ vs C#.
If you have an other opinion please let me know.
Cheers
You have the thought that modern physics just relay on assumptions, that somehow depends on a smile of a cat, which isn’t there.( Albert Einstein)
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Fatbuddha 1 wrote: but I think that in C++ you have to be more strict in the way you are implementing stuff.
Utter crap. This is true in ANY language if you're writing "proper" code, not just C++. The concepts you must learn really have nothing to do with the languages themselves. The syntax you use to use and describe concepts is irrelevant to learning the concepts.
As for me, I think C++ was the 6th language I taught myself, after about 10 flavors of Basic, Pascal, TMS9900 Assembler, Intel x86 Assembler, COBOL, C, THEN C++, ...
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I am not saying that because of the concepts it is the best way of beginning to learn C++. What I am saying is that I think it is a good language to start with because
1) The syntax of the most popular ones are quiet similar to C++
2) The language or that way you have to program in it is quiet strict and you have to be aware of more features or "traps" than in other languages.
3) You run over C++ code all of the time, such that I think it is good if you know how do deal with!
So I hope I pointed out what I am thinking, because I think we are talking of two different points.
Also I have to say I might not be so long in this stuff, but I came through Pascal, Fortran, C, C++, Perl, Phyton, Java, C# and from those I know that C++ is probably the best language if you are learning a language.
just to give you an example. Once I had an exercise where I have to program certain patterns. In C++ you will really learn some stuff out of that. In java or in C# some of those are already in. So you might think that this is good, so that I don't have to program it again, but I think it is not. Because you learn so much out of it!
So thats my side of view.
I don't know what you want me to say out of that:
"As for me, I think C++ was the 6th language I taught myself, after about 10 flavors of Basic, Pascal, TMS9900 Assembler, Intel x86 Assembler, COBOL, C, THEN C++, ."
I am guess you are a long term in programming, aren't you. And the original question was of what language to start with, such that this sentence doesn't make any sense.
Be it as it may, I think that Assembler is dead for now.
There are nearly no Companies dealing with Pascal any more,also I was introduced by it as a learning language.
I heard from COBOL, but I don't know it. Such that I thing you gain the most if you are starting with C++.
That's my point of view, and please refer to this massage, not as :crap, but you might be able to give me your side of thinking, such that, we can have a proper discussion out of it. Which I think would be nice, because I might be able to learn something new.
I hope I made my point.
Cheers
-- modified at 3:44 Friday 23rd November, 2007
You have the thought that modern physics just relay on assumptions, that somehow depends on a smile of a cat, which isn’t there.( Albert Einstein)
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Fatbuddha 1 wrote: And the original question was of what language to start with
Then start with a language that is easy to learn the main concepts. Pointer indirection is not a concept present in many modern languages, but you need to know it to use C++ effectively.
The main concepts are:
Methods
variables
Operators (e.g. +, -, /, *, %)
Flow control (e.g. if/else)
Looping (e.g. for, foreach, while)
Classes
inheritance/polymorphism/abstraction/encapsulation
Fatbuddha 1 wrote: Once I had an exercise where I have to program certain patterns. In C++ you will really learn some stuff out of that. In java or in C# some of those are already in.
Then learn different patterns. It is great that some language have certain patterns built in. By your logic we should learn assembly because the loop pattern isn't built in. You have to use conditional jump instructions, hand craft your own counters and so on to do the same thing. All C# is doing is continuing the trend. And other languages will come up in the future and continue to refine things further.
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Hi sorry for the late replay.
I have to say good point and true!!
You may be aware of that you go to much in extreme I think woth your last sentences, but ok.
Let me say it like that:
I started with pascal, where I learned the basics of programing and that stuff, afterwards we switched to C,C++, where I learned a lot in topics like memory leaks, patterns, pointers vs. references. Hardware near programming, stuff like that. Also I really got in the algorithmic thinking, or how ever you want to call this. Then we learned Java and last but not least C#. A also did some projects in Java and C#, not that you think I might be fresh from school
After looking back I think I gain the most experience in C++. Because there I really get to know what differences it makes if you do it in different ways. Also I have to say that it isn't the easierst language, it can be sometimes quiet anoying for sure! but after all, you really have to take care of every little bit and thats what I liked in terms of learning. I mean if you go for C#, just to program a little you have to know more or less about object oriented programming. Also true for java I think, also with java you wont get help in this forum, because I think the last entry is from last year or so .
So if we look in respect of this forum there are mostly two languages suported, C++ and C#, true?
Such that I think for a web developer it doesn´t make sence to go for C# because the risk is high that he stays in web Abbs and don't be force to programm general algorithms. For example a sorted dictonary in C, is for example a nice App do do , if you start.
Some of this sort, because I think there you gain a lot and you can play a lot of algorithmic thinking. I hope you know what I mean.
In C#, it is easy to "cheat", because you have the class already in. So when he plays with lists and double linked lists, trees and concepts of that and how they can be used efficiently, than he can quickly build up something where he has all the features of what you where talking and he is kind of forced to use them correctly.
And by the way, I don´t know if i missed it or not. But what would be you suggestion according to starter language?
Cheers
You have the thought that modern physics just relay on assumptions, that somehow depends on a smile of a cat, which isn’t there.( Albert Einstein)
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Hi All:
I'm just starting out in my software development career (making a lateral move from systems analyst to developer) and I was wondering if anyone has compiled a cheat sheet of the most common tech interview questions that can be asked. I know two already: "What is the difference between polymorphism and overloading?" and "What is the difference between a value type and a reference type?". And I know there are a HOST of others (I've looked at a number of tech interview sites), but what are the ones that you've found come up over and over again?
Dre---
=======================
Every experience in life is a lesson to be learned
A. Stevens
B.S., Computer Science
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I don't keep a list of question they ask me. I keep a list of questions I ask them.
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1 Do you use source control?
1a Is your SC system something other than VSS?
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If you view money as inherently evil, I view it as my duty to assist in making you more virtuous.
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And if it is VSS, is it backed up every 2 hours??  Why not?? 
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: And if it is VSS, is it backed up every 2 hours?? Why not??
I thought the if vss used branch was to either ask to leave, or start asking mess with them type questions for your personal amusement.
--
If you view money as inherently evil, I view it as my duty to assist in making you more virtuous.
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Oh, sorry, this part of the questionaire IS for personal amusement! 
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: I don't keep a list of question they ask me. I keep a list of questions I ask them.
Good, wise one
"Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
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Having a list of answers memorized is a complete waste of time. Memorised answers don't give you the depth or breadth of knowledge that you need to pass an interview. The problem is, as soon as you are probed in any depth, glaring omissions become apparent. You really need to know the subject, and be confident in it. That way you aren't going to get any nasty surprises when somebody asks you "if I want to do A, what should I be considering?"
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Pete O`Hanlon wrote: Having a list of answers memorized is a complete waste of time.
True. It just makes you a book-worm kind of; to 'mug up' and 'vomit' the contents. 
Pete O`Hanlon wrote: You really need to know the subject, and be confident in it.
Definitely true. You get a '5' vote for that.
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DRAYKKO wrote: I was wondering if anyone has compiled a cheat sheet of the most common tech interview questions that can be asked
Don't cheat. Any technically competent interviewer will realise it and if they don't they'll figure it out once they hire you and you don't want to get fired from a job - it doesn't look good.
DRAYKKO wrote: And I know there are a HOST of others (I've looked at a number of tech interview sites), but what are the ones that you've found come up over and over again?
The ones that come up over and over again are the subjects in my CV.
A good interviewer will ask questions that require you to ANALYSE something. The majority of the job of a developer is analysis. If you can't do that then you shouldn't be doing the job. You cannot create a cheat sheet for analysis questions.
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Hi
I've a masters degree in computer application.I would like to become a database administrator. What should I learn?
and what is the current job market
please advice me
Thanks & Regards
BMP
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BMP1980 wrote: What should I learn?
Databases? I'm not sure what you mean by your question.
BMP1980 wrote: what is the current job market
Depends where you are in the world. There is a shortage of good DBAs in Scotland at the moment according to the people I met at my local SQL Server UG earlier this evening. That means companies are paying lots of money to DBAs.
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There are some certificates according to databases.
If the question is what system you should learn?
Then I think there are two solutions:
Either go for a oracle DB which is a create one! But it costs! So it is just in use from some companies, who have two much money
Or you should have a try on the MySql. It is free and well documented. It is not as good as the oracle but normally it is more than ok.
Cheers
You have the thought that modern physics just relay on assumptions, that somehow depends on a smile of a cat, which isn’t there.( Albert Einstein)
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