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Funnily enough I got my start in programming when my parents bought a computer knowing it was the future, but they didn't know they had to buy software as well (or perhaps they couldn't see the value in such expensive little disks). So I had an expensive computer and no software, except for this funny program called 'basic' which allowed you to write other programs. My first paid programming gig as a teenager was writing a program to tally the survey results for a local committe opposed to a highway bypass. Today you could do the same thing in 30 minutes with Excel or Access, but I didn't have any software so I had to write it myself. The worst thing was I kept bumping into the 256Kb RAM (yes, that's KB) limits so I had to write everything off to the floppy and read it back in again as needed. I've still got the code on a printout - all it needed was some bolognaise sauce and a bit of grated parmesan. 
(edit : the highway bypass was built anyway - thus also marking my first large project that eventually went nowhere)
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I love a bit of one upmanship (and expect to get done again) I started on a commodore 64 and had to use the audio tape to store the program - ahh those were the days.
More to the point my son who I tried to encourage to become a programmer is hopeless at anything but games (he regularly beat me at any computer game). He is now a divemaster in Cairns and very happy with his choices.
Unless they have at least some talent and more important a passion for creating solutions, stick to the games.
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I think it's possible, but it would be much better to not invite relatives in your projects, company or team.
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Want to be happy - do what you like!
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Nickolay Karnaukhov wrote: but it would be much better to not invite relatives in your projects, company or team
Definitely not. This would bring in more politics right? Also, many organizations have defined HR Policies to smoothly deal with this type of issue. Isn't it?
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I don't know how companies deal with that issue but I know one married couple worked in same team on the same project and they divorced after 6 month of work together just because husband didn't liked a code his wife done...
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Want to be happy - do what you like!
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Nickolay Karnaukhov wrote: they divorced after 6 month of work together just because husband didn't liked a code his wife done
Bad Bad Attitude. Personal things and Professional deliverables should have thier own limits and a distinct tangible line of demarcation is what is emphasized here or what goes as the moral of the story.
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That is really sad...
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Want to be happy - do what you like!
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Agree... and this "rule" applies to any kind of work...
Mixing work with family have a very low rate of success.
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I wouldn't recommend anyone do programming unless they have the aptitude and want to do it for the right reasons.
It's a good job, I think, especially compared to so many others. You can make a good wage, a decent living or a fortune, depending on how far you want to take it.
But if you're not cut out for it, it's can be a wretched job. It's the sort of job that if you hum along at the lower 30% in terms of ability, you'll get 90% of the crap jobs. You'll get stuck supporting products written in technology two evolutions ago, like some weird VB3 app that is still mission critical and runs on a Windows 95 machine. You'll have to try and sort through 10 years of messed up spaghetti code - somewhat like having to live with the village bike, it's dreary and embarassing. You'll dream of the day where you get to do a clean sheet design of an exciting new product - but it will never happen. And then the worst thing happens - your skillset finally becomes obsolete because you were stuck on the old projects and didn't keep up - and you end up as a bitter testing analyst with a chip on your shoulder. And daily you declare to people 'when I was programming in assembly we didn't introduce this many bugs!'.
{oh, and that's not me!}
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Couldn't of put it better. It's something you can't just train to be good at it, it's down to aptitude.
If you're struggling developing software, then I'd recommend gardening.
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brucerchapman wrote: I wouldn't recommend anyone do programming unless they have the aptitude and want to do it for the right reasons.
Absolutely. However I think that's true for any field. If you're just getting into it for MONEY then that's the wrong reason. Don't get me wrong - it's not bad to earn the money, just don't make it the primary reason to pick your field.
brucerchapman wrote: It's a good job, I think, especially compared to so many others. You can make a good wage, a decent living or a fortune, depending on how far you want to take it.
Yup. Have been doing it for 30 years myself - can't complain about the living I make. Sure does beat digging ditches. If you're frustrated with your job go out to a construction site and watch the guys out there for a half-hour. I guarantee you'll have a new appreciation for what you do.
brucerchapman wrote: But if you're not cut out for it, it's can be a wretched job. It's the sort of job that if you hum along at the lower 30% in terms of ability, you'll get 90% of the crap jobs.
That's true in any field, not just programming.
brucerchapman wrote: You'll get stuck supporting products written in technology two evolutions ago, like some weird VB3 app that is still mission critical and runs on a Windows 95 machine. You'll have to try and sort through 10 years of messed up spaghetti code - somewhat like having to live with the village bike, it's dreary and embarassing.
Er ... I'm not sure I agree with this, at least not entirely. If you're a true developer you can find ways to be creative with whatever you're "stuck" with, so to speak. In our company, for example, our product line still has some old legacy versions that still sell very well. Sometimes I'm asked to fix stuff in the old versions of the product. I really don't mind doing that.
brucerchapman wrote: You'll dream of the day where you get to do a clean sheet design of an exciting new product - but it will never happen. And then the worst thing happens - your skillset finally becomes obsolete because you were stuck on the old projects and didn't keep up - and you end up as a bitter testing analyst with a chip on your shoulder. And daily you declare to people 'when I was programming in assembly we didn't introduce this many bugs!'.
If you're a sloppy performer then, yes, you may get "stuck" like this - however if you're really focused on being the best you can be at it this isn't a likely scenario.
Cheers,
-CB
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brucerchapman wrote: But if you're not cut out for it, it's can be a wretched job. It's the sort of job that if you hum along at the lower 30% in terms of ability, you'll get 90% of the crap jobs. You'll get stuck supporting products written in technology two evolutions ago, like some weird VB3 app that is still mission critical and runs on a Windows 95 machine. You'll have to try and sort through 10 years of messed up spaghetti code - somewhat like having to live with the village bike, it's dreary and embarassing.
How right you are, Some colleagues of mine at the University end up doing help desk support and other tail end jobs because they hated programming, they are still struggling to keep up with technology and enjoying meagre salaries for all their efforts.
Albert Dadze
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If the fear of loosing jobs or creating competitior is making us not to ask our relatives to join software development?
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Absolutely not. At least in Spain, I'm only trying to save them from an underpaid and overworked job that's actually paid and seen by spanish society as kindly as a mcdonald's (or similar) job.
Not that I mean it's a bad thing to work for a hamburger mini-factory, it's just that I don't think it's worth getting a degree in CS to get paid the minimum wage and beeing laughed at.
"I disagree with your every single word, but I'll defend to death your right to say them." - Voltaire
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asthalas wrote: I don't think it's worth getting a degree in CS to get paid the minimum wage and beeing laughed at.
I love Spain and would love to work there, but the wages software developers get paid is pitiful. Have you considered that since you are in the EU that you could work in the UK for more money? (HINT: We are desperate for good software developers in Glasgow)
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I have thought of it, but I have a familiy now and that keeps me from moving!
I did travel a lot until I settled in Valencia. It was fun and I strongly recommend it.
Now I have to remind me that I have little money but great weather
Tnx anyway!
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asthalas wrote: I did travel a lot until I settled in Valencia. It was fun and I strongly recommend it.
Now I have to remind me that I have little money but great weather
Valencia is a great place. I've only had a chance to visit once. I went camping just to the south of the city. I most enjoyed my visit to the LLadró factory. They have some beautiful stuff in there, although I couldn't believe they were allowed to smoke while painting the figurines.
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how desperate is desperate? Because if you think the wages in Spain are bad, I'll wager they're astronomical compared to the Middle East. I am looking for a change too
There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't...
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"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." - Rick Cook
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Not all of the Middle East.
In a nation where technology is respected, appreciated, and pursued, the pay is good. Major top-end software development goes on: in Israel.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
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I'm in Portugal, I though about it a while ago, and I'm still thinking about it.
Although same problems like wife and a kid had me grounded 'till now.
I'm thinking about spending a year or so just to see if it really worths it...
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AlexCode wrote: I'm in Portugal, I though about it a while ago, and I'm still thinking about it.
Although same problems like wife and a kid had me grounded 'till now.
Our schools often have additional classes for non-English speakers to get up to speed and your kid will be speaking like a native in no time.
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And as we're speaking about this, how much is "well payed" there? 
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AlexCode wrote: And as we're speaking about this, how much is "well payed" there?
As in Glasgow?
Well £30K ($60K) seems to be about average for a software developer. A bit more if you are in a financial company.
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As Colin say, it depends on where you are and in which sector.
£45k is not uncommon for a senior developer working in the engineering sector in the South East UK, but a financial sector position in London could well go for £70k or so (it would have corresponding higher pressure, of course!).
It really depends on what you're looking for. A quick search of http://www.jobserve.co.uk[^] should give you an idea of what's around.
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To leave my life here it must be for more that £45k a year.
I think my base line is on £60k...
Maybe I'll try that in a short time.
Thanks!
Alex
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