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MSBassSinger wrote: 2 - Developers, and especially software engineers/architects, are professionals, not blue collar workers. Treat them like professionals, and expect them to act like professionals.
Surely, we should all be treated the same! Our aim should be to treat blue-collar/any-collar/no-collar workers how we would like to be treated ourselves. Not to look down on them and expect preferential treatment. Your job, salary, bank-balance, house doesn't give you the right to be treated better than anyone else.
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My statement was not in the context of "looking down" on anyone. You should know, perhaps, that I had my first job working in the fields at 13 years old. I have since worked, full time, as a bagboy, machinist's mate, drill press operator, welder, electrician, pipefitter, among other blue-collar jobs. I look back on cropping tobacco and cleaning bilges, and I am always reminded not to look down on anyone. I think you misunderstood the context.
Thanks for sharing your point of view, though.
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MSBassSinger wrote: The phrase "stand up" does not refer to actually standing up, like a bunch of little school children. It means to stand up your work before the team for examination and discussion.
All these years I/we/our team took "standup" as to mean, the meeting is supposed to be so quick that you don't need to sit down (15-20 mins tops, based on team size).
A standup meeting is this (per person on the team): state the following: What work I just finished, what I am working on now, and if I have any road blocks. If there are road blocks, then identify who on the team can help clear the roadblocks.
I have never, ever known a standup meeting to be presenting my work to the team for examination.
------------
A lot of key points you listed. most I agree with completely, some not so much.
Thanks for posting.
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Quote: presenting my work to the team for examination.
Yes, that is called a Code Review and has nothing to do with the stand up. I have found the stand-ups very useful. No stand-up went beyond 15 minutes for the entire team and often was done in 5 minutes or less.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Which, of course, is not what I meant. On teams I have run, we worked our way out of daily standups (redeeming the time for actual productive work), so it would be moot for my teams anyway.
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Slacker007 wrote: so quick that you don't need to sit down (15-20 mins top
That, in and of itself, can be an ADA violation, and drive off a team member who has difficulty standing. If your team members are so undisciplined that simply asking them to keep it "short and sweet" doesn't work, then perhaps there is a separate problem that needs addressing.
Slacker007 wrote: state the following: What work I just finished, what I am working on now, and if I have any road blocks. If there are road blocks, then identify who on the team can help clear the roadblocks.
Hence the definition of "standing up your work" for examination. I did not mean, by "standing up your work", a demo, since what I wrote was in the context of a short scrum meeting. What you wrote also speaks to training team members not to sit on roadblocks or even hindrances until a scrum meeting, but to reach out in real time for help when needed. Think of the accumulated time you gain back that would have been wasted by waiting for the next scrum meeting.
I appreciate that you took the time to respond, and if my choice of words and phrasing was not clear, I apologize.
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MSBassSinger wrote: That, in and of itself, can be an ADA violation, and drive off a team member who has difficulty standing. If your team members are so undisciplined that simply asking them to keep it "short and sweet" doesn't work, then perhaps there is a separate problem that needs addressing.
Overreacting a bit with this comment, don't you think?
We have multiple team members with various disabilities, which are accommodated for.
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Slacker007 wrote: Overreacting a bit with this comment, don't you think?
No, not at all. Requiring a disabled person to stand, or even putting focus on the person that is excused from standing, opens the company to a significant liability. If that disabled person was motivated to do so, especially because standing provides no real value, it could cost the company a lot in a lawsuit.
The point is that standing up has no real benefit a software project when working with adults. Simply ask the group to be concise, stay within their time, and if more time is needed, take it to another meeting or discussion. I've been at this for over 15 years with agile (this is the 20th year of the Agile Manifesto, btw). I never had a problem with getting adults to work together to accomplish the purpose of a stand up, keeping it short, while seated. If standing is the style you prefer, then go for it. I would recommend talking to HR, if you have not already, to find out how to mitigate liability. I am sure the HR folks and their lawyer can figure out some way to protect the company.
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Yes. Yes. So much yes.
Although I wonder if the train to treat developers as professionals has already left. After 30 years of being treated like janitors, I don't know if younger developers even know what it is like to act as professionals.
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SeattleC++ wrote: I don't know if younger developers even know what it is like to act as professionals.
I think you have a valid point. But, they are teachable, so it is up to team leads to help them grow as professionals. Such a task can be a long and difficult one, but think of the value given to one who would learn.
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I spent much of the last 3 years working as a Scrum Master/Developer. I volunteered to be the Scrum Master which is scary in itself.
The strength or weakness of the "AGILE" Process is determined by how well the PO and SM and TL's do their jobs in concert with the other members of the team. Luckily, the people I was working with worked to accept the process and it worked out fairly well.
The meetings were first thing in the mornings so it wouldn't disrupt the flow of the developers or BA's. I would say 95% of the meetings were 15 minutes or less once everyone got into the flow of things. Some people complained (to be expected) but carried on. The were a number of times where people or resources were redirected based upon information provided at these meetings was surprising.
Is AGILE for everyone? No. Does it work? Yes
As they say , your mileage will vary....
Cegarman
document code? If it's not intuitive, you're in the wrong field 
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Keep in mind that daily standups are not inherent to Agile. Nowhere in the Agile Manifesto is anything like a standup mentioned. That was an idea added later that caught on. As I mentioned in the OP, a team can meet together once a week, and then ad hoc peer-to-peer discussions as needed the rest of the week. Even though the standup might occur first thing, you still lose all that accumulated time each week that could be focused on productive work.
I am sure there are use cases where a daily standup is needed. My contention is that in most cases they are not, if the team and the project are managed differently.
cegarman wrote: The were a number of times where people or resources were redirected based upon information provided at these meetings was surprising
Is it possible that the same redirections could have occurred had team members communicated, peer-to-peer, in real time instead of waiting for a standup? In my experience, yes. In your and other's experience, only you can say.
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Actually, communications between Dev Team members was very good, the usual cause was changes being formulated by the clients. These were changes as a result of legislative changes to existing regulations et al. The PO was very good at corralling the users requests and requirements. Once the external users were provided training on the AGILE method, the changes were presented in a clear format and in a timely manner (as much as possible).
Agile did help clean up the communications between Clients. BA's and Developers. Was it perfect? No. Did it help? Yes.
Cegarman
document code? If it's not intuitive, you're in the wrong field
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Give a man a duck, and he'll feed himself for days; teach a man to duck and he'll avoid low flying objects.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Such as, possibly, ducks.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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I'll take a quack at this, but I don't know what the flock I'm talking about. I don't wish to run afowl of the admins here, as they may drake me over the coals. Migrate contribution to this thread is to stop paddling these puns as if they actually fit the bill.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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What quackery is this?
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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I wonder what Daffy would do?
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Whatever Donald does, of course.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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lol,
I can't help but wonder if this isn't about my sphere packing post. quack quack
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Give a man a fire, keep him warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.
If you can't laugh at yourself - ask me and I will do it for you.
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 That's just terrible!
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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Give a man a goose and get a punch in the face.
Teach a man to goose and he gets a punch in the face.
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Give me mask and call me Zoro! "Duck" is not what I read the first time. More in the lines of a small pianist.
There is only one Vera Farmiga and Salma Hayek is her prophet!
Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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