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So, I'll get back to the health post in a moment. All of you rock in those comments.
But let's talk pies and specifically pie crust. Roll with me for a bit. Here in the US, Thanksgiving will be later this week, and in addition to turkey, there must be pies. To keep things in context, my wife and I are a bit of necessary foodies. Raising our huge family there was no money for prepped food. Taking the family out was an annual thing. So, in the early 90s, you would see our family assault Sam's Club - think Costco, but we didn't have a Costco at the time. The older boys would fan out for the bulk flour and rice, a couple of gallons of olive oil - it was very entertaining for those watching us 
Keeping with the necessity of scratch cooking, we always made our own pies. Pie crust, etc. This was during early 80s to early 90s. Then around about late 90s, I tried to make a pie again. And the Crisco recipe was garbage. Crust came out soggy. My wife shifted over to butter, but even that did not satisfy me. I wanted that flakey crust. Grr. So, I started researching, and holy elephant, did I find a lot of irate bakers. Turns out Crisco changed their recipe for the ostensible reason of making it healthier. Your baked goods sucked, but hey price of progress. Don't get me wrong, we did not have pie every night. But when we did, I had 11 sad faces trying to eat soggy crust pie.
So, shortly, I am off to the grocery store to buy lard. And I am curious, how many out there, assuming you cook, still use it? I know if you want real Mexican refried beans, you must use the lard. It's a fat content issue.
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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That's why you need to adapt your recipes when the ingredients change.
Crisco still works well (at least the last time I tried)
Lard also still works well; obviously, it also add different flavors.
CI/CD = Continuous Impediment/Continuous Despair
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Max, believe me, we have tried. It's wife my wife just gave up and started using all butter. I'm not really surfing for a solution. We have a disparate group on this site, and maybe they might know something I don't.... about pies.
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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charlieg wrote: So, shortly, I am off to the grocery store to buy lard.
You can have mine for free. It's homemade. 
Jeremy Falcon
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is there a Crisco museum where you can find the original recipe?
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I never found it. Over decades, any time I needed to remember the crust recipe, I just looked on the back of the Crisco can. It's never changed. I suppose somewhere someone has a picture of the original ingredients that went into the product.
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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I searched google images with “crisco pie crust water flour” and found a lot of old images.
Really interesting are the recipes that include a bit of baking soda and vinegar. It seems like that combo would produce micro bubbles in the dough.
Baking is top of mind with US Thanksgiving holiday arriving soon.
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interesting... many times I forget about the images thing...
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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Many years ago Penn & Teller came out with a book titled “How To Play With Your Food”. In it they included a recipe for some biscuits that you could copy and leave out at your work in the break room or wherever for your friends or coworkers to find. Of course, two of the ingredients just happened to be baking soda and vinegar.
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charlieg wrote: And I am curious, how many out there, assuming you cook, still use it? I know if you want real Mexican refried beans, you must use the lard. It's a fat content issue.
Guilty.
I fry my eggs and burgers in real fat.
Anything else, I did not taste any difference. YMMV, I am not a tasting prodigy. Also, fat is cheap; no one wants it, since everyone does proteine drinks before going to a sport school.
Don't buy that; ask your family for the stuff they throw away. Cheap as can be and tastes better 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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lol, truth. I have a few young adults in the house that enjoy their bacon. Having slowly moved away from non-stick pans to cast iron, I keep a bowl of bacon grease near my gas range. Makes everything taste better... well almost, don't put it in your cereal.
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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charlieg wrote: Having slowly moved away from non-stick pans to cast iron
Cast iron pan was the best tip ever. I was the kind of cook that uses oil in a non-stick pan. So yes, compliments to you that fat is just half of the secret.
Even unions taste better. It's a weird investment, but cast iron does not need replacement in your life, ever 
charlieg wrote: well almost, don't put it in your cereal
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Not knowing what Crisco is may leave many of us out of the conversation. I'm assuming it's some sort of non-butter fat (in a tin??) and they've changed the ingredients...
As for lard, yes I use lard for some things. I leave the pastry to SWMBO but do make crumble toppings, (better than hers) and for that I use 50/50 lard / margarine. But only because that's how I was brought up.
[Update - so I leveraged the immense power of the internet, and after lengthy researches, now know what Crisco is. Looks like it switched recipe to reduce fats and include lots of palm oil. I don't know the US feeling about palm oil (sigh, I should google that too I guess) but there's considerable resistance to it in the UK due to its environmental impacts. It is found in just about every vegetable-based fat/spread, but in small proportions. Try and find an alternative with less palm oil (which can make spreads really watery, and presumably contributes to the sogginess) and more sunflower oil. Problem is that's expensive right now thanks to Putin.  ]
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I plead guilty as charged. Yes, Crisco is one of those quintessential American products that in the 60/70s that was ubiquitous in households everywhere. As for the Crisco changes, yes, that is exactly what they did. Since we typically bake about 3 times/year, I just don't worry about using "healthier" products - a very dubious claim. There is so much crap in American food, it's astounding.
One example I find completely heinous.... during covid with people stuck at home, may suburban people in the US started their own chicken collection. It's an interesting distraction - somehow I got duped into getting 6 but I did get a free coup. Anyway, I get anywhere from 3-7 eggs each day, unless my little rat dog sneaks in and steals a few (I'm going to pop her with my air rifle if I ever catch her). If you see a fresh egg like this, the yolks are a deep yellow - they are simply beautiful. So, now the egg industry is dying their yolks. Ugh.
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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Oh yes, a fresh (really fresh) egg is a glorious golden colour. I visit the south-west of England very frequently, and always make sure I come back with a box of fresh eggs from a near-neighbour, who has a little honesty box outside their terraced house.
The other thing is that in the US, eggs sold commercially are washed. This removes not only any minor bits of feather and straw, but the completely effective antibacterial membrane that naturally protects an egg, so that shop-bought eggs need to be kept in the fridge. In most other places eggs are sold unwashed, and therefore don't need to be put in the fridge, and stay fresher for longer. Glad there was some little benefit from Covid for you! 
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Oh absolutely, and that's why in some places (Australia, the USA, Japan and others) they are washed or blanched. In the UK hens are vaccinated against salmonella, which combined with animal welfare standards keeps salmonella infection rates extremely low in the laying population. UK Food Standards advice is that "British Lion eggs* can safely be eaten runny, or even raw, by pregnant women, young children and elderly". In the US, the Department of Agriculture states "Everyone is advised against eating raw or undercooked egg yolks, whites or products containing them". Just different approaches to a common problem. Personally, I love a fried egg with a runny yolk, or toast "soldiers" dipped into the runny yolk of a soft-boiled egg.
Apologies that this thread has veered off topic; mea culpa.
* That doesn't mean eggs from our British lions. It refers to a standards mark stamped on eggs that meet the food hygiene standards and are NOT washed
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DerekT-P wrote: eggs from our British lions
So the eggs from lions in Britain still must be handled with care?
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So, I am happy to report that the crust is back to normal. Flakey and actually crusty rather than the old goop.
As for eggs, and post Covid, the CDC has so damaged it's credibility that the USA has a real issue with the agency. We're still working through the BS.
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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I use lard and butter. The last time I bought it the cashier asked me what it is. I avoid the hydroginated lard though.
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The other pie crusts were made with butter. The apple pie came out most excellent, and the crust did not get gooey after the first day
The only thing I care about in my food is MSG. Results in an instant migraine for my wife.
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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@OriginalGriff
Please excuse the interruption. I think lot of us would like to hear from you how you are doing.
Kind regards
Bruno
modified 20-Nov-23 17:26pm.
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It's complicated, which is why I haven't been here recently - my mental state isn't too wonderful and in addition to fighting off the Black Cloud my focus is missing - I can cope with small jobs with a defined start and end, but ones that need thinking about aren't too easy at the moment.
Let me run through the history ... Michelle and I first met in a pub, when she hit me in the balls with a pool cue - a few weeks later I got a 2am call that her boyfriend had hit her and she'd got the heck out. I put her up on the couch for a few nights, then we were together almost continually for the next 30+ years. In May 2020 the wonderful NHS gave her Covid (by shipping all long-term patients out of the local hospital into residential homes without doing any covid testing despite having Covid in the hospital) and two days later she had given it to me. You may remember how sick I was at the time, and how long it took me to recover? She got it worse and was eventually diagnosed with Emphysema and Pulmonary Fibrosis which meant she travelled everywhere with an O2 bottle and was allowed up to 2 l/min when she wanted or needed it. In March of this year, she got it again - and gave it to me two days later - and came out of it much worse: ambulances were called, and she was moved to permanent O2 which rose to 5 l/min and finally 10 l/min if she was sleeping / resting with 15 l/min if she was moving or stressed. Even then, her SATs were in the toilet most of the time: resting was in the mid 80's, and a visit to the toilet would drop her into the 40's. To give you an idea what that means, it's how much oxygen is in your blood as a percentage - a hospital SAT monitor goes into alarm mode if it drops to 88 or below.
Basically, I was a full time carer from March onward. The house was filled with oxygen concentrators and large tanks in case of a power cut, and the car with "travel cylinders" which used to last her around 3 1/2 hours each, but now would last under 1/2 hour. I bought her a wheelchair because she had to stop twice and get her breath back just to get from the house to the car even on the full 15 l/min. We were getting on top of it, and a respiratory care team was assembling to back us up.
Then she fell off a chair and broke her arm - knocked the shoulder end ball clean off - ambulance trip to hospital but they couldn't operate to fix it because the breathing problems made a general anesthetic too risky. So she couldn't go upstairs at all, the stairs are too steep and she needed both hands to be safe. She slept sitting up on the sofa so she wouldn't roll over onto it. Took months to heal enough to start using the arm, which had atrophied badly by then, so she had to stay downstairs until physiotherapy could sort that. I was sleeping upstairs in the bedroom and got to understand the "The Police" song[^]
She had a second fall on the 27th October when she tripped over her oxygen line on the way back from the toilet and face planted the floor, broke her nose, blood everywhere, another ambulance because I couldn't lift her safely on my own but she refused point blank to be taken to hospital (as she well knew that Social Services would refuse to let her come home again).
Then at 4am on the 29th I went for a pee and found her on the floor of the bathroom. She was cold; she wasn't breathing; I could find no pulse. Emergency call made, I was instructed to start CPR, which meant first rolling her on her back. This took ages as it's a small bathroom, and a big woman (I will never believe the TV shows when they just lift a corpse and dump it in a car boot - that doesn't happen). 1..2..3..4, 1..2..3..4, 1..2..3..4, ... It seemed like forever that I was trying to get her heart beating but it was probably only 15 minutes before the police arrived and took over while I collapsed in a knackered heap to get my breath back. Ambulance arrived and took over, dragging her out of the bathroom to get better access, but there was nothing they could do either, and undertakers were called to collect her.
Eventually, the house was cleared of people and I was alone in a silent house. It was never silent when Michelle was there: the TV blaring (she was a bit deaf), or her yelling at it; her snoring; her concentrator - there was always noise. I couldn't stay, I had to get out. I found myself on the bridge over the river, just watching the water in the rain. I walked home, but I couldn't open the door because I knew she wouldn't be there. I found myself on the bridge again, and again, and again until Beth next door came out to find out what I was doing as I'd walked past her house a dozen times or so. And that began two days of horrible conversations as I told friends and relatives the news in person or by phone.
The doctor refused to sign off on a natural death (because of the fall on the Friday) so there would have to be a PM and I was in limbo until then. A week ago the PM was done and the coroner was satisfied there was no foul play, so I could register the death and arrange cremation. And I knew what killed her: the PM was pretty clear and listed three causes of death:
1) Cardiomegaly (an enlarged heart, which just stopped)
2) Emphysema and Pulmonary Fibrosis
3) Covid
She is officially a Covid death: it caused the E&PF and the extremely low SATs from that caused her heart to struggle and enlarge. Even if she had called for help to go to the loo (which she needed every time) and hadn't stubbornly decided not to wake me this time there would have been nothing I could have done to change the outcome; no way for anyone to spot the enlarged heart. Doesn't stop me wishing she had yelled for me though.
I didn't eat for four days, I just wasn't hungry. I am still pretty much a mess on the inside, but I'm presenting a reasonable facsimile of a Fully Functional Human Being most of the time. I'm still waking up at 4am and sitting on the floor in the bathroom to talk to her because that's where and when I found her. I've started drinking again, which I know is destructive but it helps me get to sleep. I'm not ready to do anything coding related yet - I can't concentrate enough for that, it's like I have a black cloud over my head and I'm spending all my energy trying to keep it outside. I fall to pieces too easily - it takes very little to get me crying again and the house is full of memories and reminders. I'm probably going to have to talk to the doctor again maybe about antidepressants, counselling, or something - I dunno. I'll think about it.
So ... how are you all?
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Hi Paul, wow.  Any family/friend you can get in touch with ? Even if you do not feel like it, it probably helps speaking to someone real. Then again, I am not a specialist.
You have all the virtual sympathy I can send out. ![Rose | [Rose]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif) Take care.
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