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honey the codewitch wrote: Sometimes just getting something out into the ether will make a solution come to me.
We're your virtual rubber ducks! 
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994. So does this signature. me, 2012
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More than once, I've thought we should take up a collection to buy the Witch a rubber duck!
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Lookin good
The most expensive tool is a cheap tool. Gareth Branwyn
JaxCoder.com
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I usually switch my TX and RX lines. Weird that you would do it backwards!
If you can't laugh at yourself - ask me and I will do it for you.
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The issue was I was confused because of the orientation. I assumed TX and RX on the breakout module were telling me the *destination* pins, not the source in this case, which seems obvious to me now.
To err is human. Fortune favors the monsters.
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Buenas trades, recien empiezo con un proyecto y no se cuanto cobrar por el, consiste en registro de usuarios, clientes, productos y llenado de informacion por medio de asp.net core, manejando bases de datos y generando reportes de produccion con graficos etc. Todo el proyecto esta destinado a quedarse con el cliente (codigo fuente y manual tecnico del servidor).
Soy de México y pensaba cobrar 10,000 pesos (500 dls) por un mes de trabajo con el software. ¿Esta bien el precio considerando que el código se lo quedan ellos y todo lo que se tiene que realizar como manejo de bases de datos etc? ¿Puedo justificar un precio mas alto por todas las funcionalidades o manjo de informacion en bases de datos que requiere el software? Espero me puedan ayudar, muchas gracias.
Translation:
I need guidance in relation to crib charging for a job as a freelancer
Good trades, I have just started with a project and I do not know how much to charge for it, it consists of registering users, customers, products and filling information through asp.net core, managing databases and generating production reports with graphs etc. The whole project is destined to stay with the client (source code and technical manual of the server).
I'm from Mexico and I was planning to charge 10,000 pesos (500 dls) for a month of working with the software. Is the price right considering that the code is kept by them and everything that has to be done as database management etc? Can I justify a higher price for all the functionalities or database information required by the software? I hope you can help me, thank you very much.
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A contractor often charges twice as much as the usual salary because (a) you have to pay your own benefits, (b) maybe provide your own computer, (c) are always looking for your next contract, and (d) have to pay all of your employment taxes.
This sounds like a contract for a senior developer, so someone doing it in the US might have a salary of US$96K per year, or $8K per month. A contractor might then charge $16K. But the cost of living in Mexico is considerably lower, so salaries are also lower.
This site[^] says that the average developer in Mexico City earns about 50,000 pesos per month (salary plus other benefits), in which case you should consider asking for up to 100,000 pesos if this is a full-time contract.
EDIT: If you are using existing software and not developing any, but simply entering data and generating reports, then my estimate is too high.
modified 2-Aug-22 22:01pm.
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Thank you very much for your answer. I use your comment to have a better consideration when making a final decision.
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José Cruz Quintanilla Paredes wrote: I have just started with a project
If you really have already started there's not much you can change, but in future always agree a price (and a rate at which any additional work will be based on) before you start work. Otherwise one of you - either the client or you - are unlikely to be happy, which means a poor relationship, which spells trouble. In this instance, if you've already suggested a price/rate and then you increase it tenfold, as the answer above suggests, that will lead to a very unhappy customer; or at the very least, put doubts in the customer's head about how reliable / knowledgeable you are.
Good luck, hope it all works out for you. 
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If you are a freelance you must earn your normal salary + all taxes and extra costs + some buffer for when you don't work.
Imagine you work 6 months only; you must live all the year though so you will need to get more money to live.
In the other hand, you will have to pay all taxes related to a business, check first how much it will be and invoice accordingly.
You will be much more expensive than a normal worker, but in the other hand they will only use you when they need, and you should give instant knowledge with zero cost for them.
You can bill less than that and work more hours to get more money, bill at least that and work more hours or bill more and work less hours. that will depend on your expertise and their difficulty to find services like yours.
Billing per hours is a way not to lose money in case customers don't give you proper details on what they want.
Billing per project is much better as they get a closed price, and you can decide how to distribute the hours.
Billing per project only works if no one else participates in the project. I am an industrial programmer working as a freelance and trust me, if I program the robot then the PLC coder, mechanical engineers, electrical guys... all of them add some extra complexity, time or problems into the project.
And about the code... depending on the country laws it can be a problem, unless you make a good contract that states how this is handled. They own the code means you can't use it in future projects. They own parts of the code (except what can be clearly defined) you can use the exceptions in future projects. They co-own the code; this means you and them can use it without limitations...
Get information about all this in your country.
Hope all this helps you.
![Beer | [beer]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/beer.gif)
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I was never freelancer (I have thought about a couple of times and had a look on the topic here in germany though) but many years in the industry automation projects...
Joan M wrote: if I program the robot then the PLC coder, mechanical engineers, electrical guys... all of them add some extra complexity, time or problems into the project.
Oh my... I can relate to that so much...
We are always / very often the last ones in the timeline but we have to keep the deadline... that sucks A LOT.
Joan M wrote: laws it can be a problem
Oh yes... and even knowing them can still be a PITA
Joan M wrote: They own the code means you can't use it in future projects. They own parts of the code (except what can be clearly defined) you can use the exceptions in future projects. They co-own the code; this means you and them can use it without limitations...
And make sure that this is really clear stated in the contract. There is nothing worst than interpretation room in important clauses...
You: I meant this
Customer: But we understood that
(or the other way around)
very nasty situations because most of them come after the point of no return and the contractor has very often the worst cards for the game.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I ask for, and usually get "billable time". I track my hours, and bill them at a given rate; which varies with the demands of the job.
Never enter into fixed bids if you can help it. Weekly billings reduces your exposure in case the client is slow to pay; and you can quit without racking up a lot of "account receivable".
"Support" involves phone calls and late hours keeping the client happy; even "off site".
So, think of an "hourly rate" and "terms"; it's called marketing and negotiation and is part of the job.
As long at you're timely; can back up the hours with "results"; there is never any problem going for hourly billings.
"Before entering on an understanding, I have meditated for a long time, and have foreseen what might happen. It is not genius which reveals to me suddenly, secretly, what I have to say or to do in a circumstance unexpected by other people; it is reflection, it is meditation." - Napoleon I
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Depende de muchas cosas, pero principalmente del tiempo y recursos que le vayas a destinar. Es tu costo + gastos + utilidad, esa es la fórmula mágica.
Ten cuidado con las especificaciones y que queden bien definidas en un contrato simple. Sí terminas todo lo que dices en mucho menos tiempo que el mes (digamos 1 semana) pues está bien cobrado si te vas a pasar del mes ya le vas perdiendo, porque supongo que estás pensando usar muchos templates y reciclar código. Sí vas a comenzar de 0, vuelve a estimar tu tiempo. Usualmente se cobra por horas de desarrollo (es el estándar en desarrollo), la tarifa puede variar mucho, desde unos 10usd/hr hasta 100usd/hr, es un dato informativo no referencial. Yo le pensaría y echaría un poco más de lápiz.
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As a Spanish speaking person, even the Spanish part hurts my eyes, translator is mostly NOT to blame for the poor translation.
Nesecito Necesito
cunato cuanto
trades tardes
manjo manejo
Is not about being a grammar Nazi, just basic professionalism, specially if you want to be taken seriously by clients.
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Hola Jose,
Primero que nada, felicidades por conseguir un proyecto, en especial si es el primero (o el primero en el que te van a pagar por el), en Mexico es difícil que la gente que no es de IT se interese por soluciones de IT para sus problemas.
Segundo, el precio de un proyecto depende mucho de lo que le vas a invertir en hacerlo y a tu nivel de experiencia, si no tienes experiencia considera que le vas a invertir mucho (tiempo) al mismo, consecuentemente, tu precio seria bajo por la misma falta de experiencia; si ya eres un desarrollador experimentado, el proyecto seria mas sencillo porque la experiencia te ayuda a encontrar atajos, pero por lo mismo cobrarías mas caro tu tiempo.
Por ejemplo, en el caso de tu proyecto, por ese precio yo (un desarrollador experimentado) buscaría algo que ya existiera y que cumpliera el 99% de lo que el cliente quiere y que se pudiera implementar en una semana a lo mucho, si el cliente quiere algo a la medida, me temo que el precio es muy bajo, como 4 o 5 veces muy bajo y si no tienen un idea clara de lo que quiere yo les cobraría por hora.
Tercero, no malbarates el trabajo por conseguir el cliente, el hacerlo acostumbra al cliente a que le cobres barato y cuando subas los precios refunfuñara y buscara al siguiente que le ofrezca un precio bajo, lo que a su vez perpetua el ciclo; ademas en mi experiencia, los clientes dispuestos a pagar poco son los que mas lata dan (requieren mas soporte, y disponibilidad de ti).
Finalmente, mucha suerte en tu proyecto y recuerda, hacemos magia y la magia no es barata.
Definitely not Google Translated:
Hi Jose,
First of all, congratulations for your new project, especially if it's the first one (or the first one you'll be paid for), in Mexico is hard for not IT people to be interested in IT solutions for their problems.
Second, the price of the project depends into how much you'll invest into doing it, and your experience level, if you're inexperienced you'll invest too much (time), and therefore, you'll charge very little because you're inexperienced; if you're an experimented developer, the project will be easier because experience helps you to find shortcuts, but consequently, you will charge a lot more for your time.
For example, with your project, for that price, I (an experienced developer) would look for an existing solution that does 99% of what the customer wants and that i would be able to implement in a week at most, if the customer wants something custom, then I'm afraid the price is too low, like 4 or 5 time too low, and if they don't know exactly what they want i could charge them by the hour.
Third, don't sell yourself cheap to get the client, doing so they get used to it and when you raise the price they'll grumble about it and will look for the next one that gives him the cheapest price perpetuating this cycle, besides, in my experience, the clients who are cheap are the most demanding (the require more support and more of your time).
Finally, good luck with your project and remember, we do magic and magic ain't cheap.
"Science fiction is any idea that occurs in the head and doesn’t exist yet, but soon will, and will change everything for everybody, and nothing will ever be the same again." Ray Bradbury
modified 4-Aug-22 12:43pm.
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If you realize that you undercharged (charged too little), then be faithful to your scope and timeline and deliverables.
If they like your work, then charge a little more for the next project.
Repeat until you reach market value.
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Todo depende de varias cosas:
+ El tiempo que les vas a invertir, haz un plan de trabajo, divide el trabajo en tareas que puedas medir en horas, y obten el total de horas que te va a llevar hacerlo. Si no tienes mucha esperiencia haciendo esto, multiplica tu estimación por algun factor (entre 1.2 y 2 por ejemplo), ya que en un principío tendemos a estimar bajo, pensando en que todo va a salir bien.
+ Tu nivel de experiencia (Entre mas experiencia, mas puedes cobrar). Si trabajas en algún lugar puedes utilizar tu sueldo como referencia, pero multiplícalo por un factor (por ejemplo 1.5 o 2), ya que no vas a tener el respaldo de a empresa donde trabajas, lo que significa que tu vas a poner varias cosas , además de tu trabajo: tu equipo, luz, internet, etc. Convierte este "sueldo" a tu ingreso por hora.
+ El tiempo que tienes para hacerlo (Entre más rápido lo quiera el cliente, mas puedes cobrar). Si es menos de lo que tu estimas que te va a tomar, utiliza un factor mayor a 1, dependiendo del tiempo extra que le vas a tener que invertir (desveladas, fines de semana, vacaciones, etc)
Por último, considera que no solo vas a desarrollar una pieza de software, sino que vas a invertir tiempo en juntas, documentación, pruebas, modificaciones, etc. Incrementa tu estimación considerando el tiempo que vas a tener que invertir
en esto.
Con esos 3 factores, horas, sueldo por hora y factor de tiempo, puedes obtener un número que será tu estimado inicial del proyecto. Si además vaas a tener que invertir en equipo, licencias, etc, agrega esos costos a tu estimación.
Espero que esto te ayude!
------------------------------------------
It all depends on several things:
+ The time you're going to invest, make a work plan, divide the whole project in task you can measure in hours, and the sum of all them will get you a time estimate. If you dont have experience doing this, apply a factor (maybe between 1.2 and 2 for example), because when you start doing estimates, you tend to estimate low, thinking everything is going to be perfect.
+ Your level of expertise (the more experienced you are, the more you can charge). If you have a regular job, you can use your salary as reference, but multiply it by a factor (1.5 or 2 for example), because your not going to have the backupi of the place you work, which means you have to put some thing on your own besides your work: you own equipment, power, internet, etc. Convert your "salary" to a hourly income.
+ The time you have to finish the job (the faster the client need it, the more you can charge). If the time you estimates to finish the job is more than the time the client needs it, consider a factor above 1, depending of the extra time you're going to need: night hours, weekends, holidays, etc).
At last, you need to consider you're not only developing a piece of software, you need to take in cosideration the tiem you¿re going to invest in meetings, documentation, testing, changes, etc. Increase you estimation
With the 3 factors, estimated hours, hour salary, time factor, you can get an initial estimate for the project. If you need to invest in equipment, licenses, etc, you need to add those costs to your estimate.
Hope this helps !
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El trabajo como lo planteas es para un desarrollador de mediano a senior, con rango de sueldo entre 25 a 50 mil pesos al mes.
Toma en cuenta que de lo que cobres hay que quitar impuestos, y tus propios gastos. Para ello hay una regla un poco vieja pero no menos efectiva: precio = costo x 3.
Así que te recomiendo que lo cobres en al menos 25 mil pesos.
También toma en cuenta que posiblemente el cliente cree que con un mes de trabajo basta, pero por lo que cuentas, es como para 3 meses. Ten comunicación constante con tu cliente, hazle ver lo que haces y los avances que tienes. Así tendrás mejores argumentos para que el cliente te pague el tiempo necesario.
Y por último: no todos, pero algunos son malos clientes; quieren todo en media hora y de todo se quejan. Toma en cuenta que lo primero es tu bienestar y tu equilibrio trabajo/vida personal. Se claro con tu cliente en cuanto tiempo al día dedicas al trabajo. Pon metas realistas. Y si el cliente no entiende, es mejor cortar por lo sano. Así te evitarás estar comprometido con un proyecto que te deje pérdidas.
Yo también soy de México y llevo algunos años como freelancer. Si de algo te sirve escríbeme y con gusto platicamos para darte ideas sin costo: carlospc@carlospc.com
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Wordle 410 6/6
⬛⬛⬛🟩⬛
⬛🟩⬛🟩🟩
⬛🟩⬛🟩🟩
⬛🟩🟩🟩🟩
⬛🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
Remind me not to make comments about too many choices which only vary by one letter!
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Wordle 410 5/6
⬜⬜⬜⬜🟨
⬜🟨⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜🟩⬜⬜
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🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
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Wordle 410 4/6
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬛⬛🟨🟨🟨
🟨🟩🟩⬛🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
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This is a problem if following hard-mode rules. Otherwise, just pick a word that contains most of the possible letters.
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Wordle 410 5/6
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜🟩⬜🟩🟩
⬜🟩⬜🟩🟩
⬜🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
If I'd used my regular 3rd, instead of guessing too soon, I would have got it in 4.
Software rusts. Simon Stephenson, ca 1994. So does this signature. me, 2012
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Wordle 410 3/6
⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜
🟨🟩⬜⬜⬜
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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