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Mark_Wallace wrote: It's just f***ing greedy and stupid, so, given it's led by the greed and stupidity of humans, don't expect it to ever stop.
I am not expecting it at all.
I have already used the money and the human stupidity in some other messages below.
M.D.V. 
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ofcourse and i provided an example. A lot of "bio invasion" is changing the nature ...
Press F1 for help or google it.
Greetings from Germany
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Casting blame - founded or unfounded - helps no-one. Fix the problem, then work out how it happened and institute procedures to prevent it happening again.
But sensationalist finger pointing by non-scientists just muddies the waters and reduces cooperation at the time it is most needed.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
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I am not trying to finger-point. I wanted to have a conversation about the "only because we can it doesn't mean we should"
There have been a couple of messages saying we can have a nice conversation in the lounge. I was trying to give a shot.
I give you that the topic was very probably not the best selection, I just thought this way there would be more participation.
I obviously was wrong 
M.D.V.
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I didn't mean to imply you were - I meant the "journalist" who produced the original material.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
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Fair enough.
Sadly sensationalism is sometimes the only thing that starts speaking about something. Afterwards some other sources with a bit more common sense join in (and that was my target, see what people here I consider intelligent can say about)
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
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are you sure you are not a politician? 
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That is one of the vilest things anyone has ever said about me! 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
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well, you can report me and I can get banned for good this time. 
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Nah ... sticks and stones, and all that! 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
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Anyway, how could I possibly be a politician? Ignoring that I have a spine, I answer questions! 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
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Casting blame - it's what people like to do to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.
The world's politics is currently in a blame-phase. Certainly in much of Europe and the US. Other places (let's call them authoritarian) have done it since always. You can get away with a lot of abuse in the name of "protecting the motherland/fatherland/holycity/blah".
That's one of the reasons conspiracy theories are as inevitable as breathing. If someone didn't ever study, cut school a lot, etc., and ends up with a lousy job, it has to be the fault of the person who's race and/g-d/language/place-of-birth is different than theirs. Isn't it always?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Coronaviruses are a virus familiy that has been investigated for decades now, especially after the SARS crisis in the past.
It was proved that the virus could /edit NOT have been created intentionally in labs ; this said, it could have evolved from something created in a lab, but we will never know. Several countries have been experimented gene manipulations (on viruses, on animals, maybe even on people), under cover of trying to find cures. Or maybe the next power military beast.
Here an example of research about corona :Paper coronavirus 2007 - Google Search[^]
/edit: damn, I missed the most important word in my post
modified 2-Apr-20 10:10am.
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Rage wrote: Several countries have been experimented gene manipulations (on viruses, on animals, maybe even on people), under cover of trying to find cures. Or maybe the next power military beast.
And that's my fear.
i.e. Atomic energy / atomic bomb
Genetic and mutations (or other biotech's) are two-sided swords and murphy's laws are real bitches... if we always push the boundaries (no matter with which intentions, I don't want to include things done in purpose for military) it might explode us in the face. And that's the aspect I wanted to bring in the conversation.
Peniciline was a lucky accident / coincidence.
But what will happen if the next accident / coincidence is something that goes in the opposite direction?
M.D.V.
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Gawd yes - the Common Cold is a set of symptoms caused by a number of viruses, including a couple of Coronaviruses, Rhinoviruses, and so forth.
And we still don't have a cure for that ... probably due to the amount of money involved in "curing the symptoms" each winter.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
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OriginalGriff wrote: probably due to the amount of money involved in "curing the symptoms" each winter.
+1
M.D.V.
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Rage wrote: Several countries have been experimented gene manipulations (on viruses, on animals, maybe even on people)
So far, so good.Rage wrote: under cover of trying to find cures
Aaaand you blew it!
Who?
Who would work in a lab that was dedicated to producing a nastier version of SARS?
Which people would get up in the morning, kiss their kids goodbye, go to work, and then work on designing an uncontrollable virus that kills people -- people like their children?
And don't say they'd be designing a controllable one, because if they're good enough to do that kind of work, they're certainly knowledgeable enough to know that there's no such thing as a controllable micro-organism. Killable? Sure. Controllable? No way.
Do you know how many people would be involved with a lab like that? , Scientists, researchers, research assistants, cleaners, HR, buyers, IT support, engineering support, software developers, delivery boys, etc, etc, etc. (Not to mention about 50 managers.)
It's hundreds of people, not just one megalomaniacal nutter and a bunch of little yellow minions.
You need a worshipful society to get enough of the different kinds of staff you'd need; they'd have to mindlessly and undeservedly worship their leader -- a "God on Earth" or a Big Brother type, like Pol Pot, Mao Ze Dong, etc. ISIS could do it, if they could actually get a lab like that together without the West finding out about it and bombing it; North Korea could do it, and I wouldn't put it past the current US administration to think seriously about it.
But the country that most of these accusations are aimed at? Not a hope in Hell. Xi isn't revered or worshipped, like Mao was. He's respected, because he's a pretty remarkable guy (I apologise if this truth about a remarkable human being offends the indoctrinated feelings of some people, but, well, **** 'em; their racism offends me and most of the rest of the world), but if he tried to put together that kind of project, there'd be riots in the streets, and the army (which has a proud revolutionary history) would be on the rioters' side.
Grimly Fiendish, Gru, Scaramanga, and Doctor Doom only exist in movies and comic books, and all the people needed to create such an uncontrollable "weapon" would have to be hired in the real world.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Who ?
China did. France did, we have such a lab in the area of Lyon ! We had to pass a law for avoiding patents on biological livings and to stop gene manipulations or eugenics. These leads inexorably to human beings being transformed into men with no fear and no brain (so the perfect soldier). China even cloned a human being already.
France has nuclear weapons. Enough to nuke the complete world. So what's the difference from the military point of view ? "Bioweapons" are at least as good mass destruction weapons as a deterrence strategy. Deterrence does not rely on killing others and controlling so that you are not touched by it, it relies on telling the others that there is nothing to win by attacking since nobody would survive at all.
Plus bioterrorism is already a thing.[^]
I am not telling that China or anyone has developed in a secret lab the Covid-19, this was clearly proved as a derivation of some animal virus. But this does not mean that nobody is developing some nasty things in an organized way and sponsored by goverments.
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Rage wrote: China did. France did, we have such a lab in the area of Lyon ! We had to pass a law for avoiding patents on biological livings and to stop gene manipulations or eugenics. These leads inexorably to human beings being transformed into men with no fear and no brain (so the perfect soldier). China even cloned a human being already.
France has nuclear weapons. Enough to nuke the complete world. So what's the difference from the military point of view ? "Bioweapons" are at least as good mass destruction weapons as a deterrence strategy. Deterrence does not rely on killing others and controlling so that you are not touched by it, it relies on telling the others that there is nothing to win by attacking since nobody would survive at all.
I think there is a lot behind this arguments, but that is enough for a new thread and can very fast degenerate into soapbox levels. Sadly
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
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Nelek wrote: can very fast degenerate into soapbox levels. Sadly
Only if people stop discussing it as civilised people.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Rage wrote: China did. France did, we have such a lab in the area of Lyon
Lots of countries got into genetics, in the early days of it, but we've learned a lot, since then, and one thing geneticists have learned is "don't mess with weaponising virals".Rage wrote: We had to pass a law for avoiding patents on biological livings and to stop gene manipulations or eugenics
AFAIK, the US still allows genetic sequence patenting, but that and eugenics are another thing -- as different from weaponising viruses as network administration is from coding in VB.Rage wrote: These leads inexorably to human beings being transformed into men with no fear and no brain (so the perfect soldier).
A much beloved concept in Sci-Fi, movies, and comics, but again, it could only be carried out by a totalitarian government, where the "Great Leader" is an object of worship.Rage wrote: China even cloned a human being already.
Fake news, I'm afraid, disseminated by rags like the Daily Mail. The proper docs show that they cloned stem cells from human embryos -- for medical purposes, like growing organs for transplant, and what have you. Again, chalk to bioweapons' cheese.
Rage wrote: Deterrence does not rely on killing others and controlling so that you are not touched by it, it relies on telling the others that there is nothing to win by attacking since nobody would survive at all.
"You use bioweapons and we'll nuke you" is also a feasible deterrent.Rage wrote: Plus bioterrorism is already a thing.[^]
Sure, in dictionaries and encyclopaedias (the only instance of it that I've heard of was carried out by US citizens on US citizens), but bioterrorism is just biowarfare carried out by a tiny army. They don't manufacture new viruses -- it's easier to make pipe bombs or fill bags with salomonella-infected slurry than splice bits of virus together.Rage wrote: this does not mean that nobody is developing some nasty things in an organized way and sponsored by goverments.
Well, TBH, I wouldn't look to China for that kind of thing at all; it's not their way (China never bothered trying hard to win wars, because any victorious invaders just became Chinese), and they're not a totalitarian government.
North Korea, maybe, but Fatty Kim III seems to prefer playing with ballistics. If Hungary and Brazil keep going they way they're going, they could be added to the list -- as could the US, somewhat surprisingly, if a certain-coloured person has his way and tears up half of the bill of rights and achieves his objective of making himself ruler for life.
A national leader you may be familiar with managed to achieve the same objectives in the 1930s, also with populist support, in another country that thought its democracy was unassailable.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark, I just noticed that I forgot a "NOT" in a sentence in my initial post. Not that it changes my point, but it for sure led to confusion.
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Rage wrote: Coronaviruses are a virus familiy that has been investigated for decades now
This.
I was reading some random article on Wikipedia a few days ago that mentioned Coronaviruses had first been identified in the 60s.
What this does to the Chinese conspiracy theory being floated about, I don't know, nor honestly care.
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Nelek wrote: "Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and that could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?"
We have been doing this for hundreds of years, perhaps even longer.
When we graft different types of plants onto each other we are interfering with nature.
Mendel was fiddling with peas a while back.
Perhaps the difference is that nowadays we can knock in or knock out specific genes - when I say specific even then it's within a certain probability, it's not an exact science.
I think it's more of a philosophical question - the question going something like this:
Given that there will always be bad/evil people in the world, do we limit technological progress to prevent these people from using that technology for their evil deeds?
I think the answer to the above question is "No".
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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GuyThiebaut wrote: When we graft different types of plants onto each other we are interfering with nature.
GuyThiebaut wrote: that nowadays we can knock in or knock out specific genes - when I say specific even then it's within a certain probability, it's not an exact science.
Exactly
And the potential boom is too high in my opinion. Nature has mutations too, but it is much slower. If we put in a couple of (weeks, months, years) what nature would do in centuries, milleniums or even more... We are not going to be able to react if something goes really bad.
GuyThiebaut wrote: I think it's more of a philosophical question - the question going something like this:
Given that there will always be bad/evil people in the world, do we limit technological progress to prevent these people from using that technology for their evil deeds?
I think the answer to the above question is "No".
I am not defending the limitation.
I am more for slowing down a bit and let our wisdom take up our knowledge.
A parallel example could be what Woody Allen said once: "One gets married to solve problems that a single doesn't have" (translated on my own, too lazy to search for the exact quote in english)
Sometimes we do things to try to get a solution for something that end being worst than the original problem. Luckily it is something that doesn't happen that often.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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