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Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

30-Mar-20 17:48

Donenfeld said:
On the backports front

Because that's how Linux wallahs speak -- and the don't do it for fun/satire/a laugh, like I do; it's all completely deadpan.

When I advertise for a partner for my double act, I'm going to put "30 years' experience in Linux development" as a requirement. Just the kind of straight-man I need.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

Kent Sharkey30-Mar-20 11:00

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

30-Mar-20 11:00

Functionize[^]:
People talk about adopting more Agile practices and using a DevOps-centric culture, but development teams regularly say that testing is a bottleneck.

I thought Agile folk didn't test?

It all just gets bumped to the next sprint.

Mark_Wallace30-Mar-20 17:29

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

30-Mar-20 17:29

I've never worked on an agile team where testing was the bottleneck, because no-one on any of the teams I've worked on was so stupid as to not understand that if something isn't tested it's not ready for release.

Testing isn't a bottleneck, it's part of the process. Not tested = not ready for release.

n.b. I've never worked for microsoft, but you probably already figured that out.

The article writer asks:
who wants to kneecap the developers?

You want me to start a list?

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

F-ES Sitecore31-Mar-20 1:58

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

31-Mar-20 1:58

Mark_Wallace wrote:
I've never worked on an agile team where testing was the bottleneck

...says someone who has never worked with an agile team Smile | :)

Mark_Wallace31-Mar-20 2:58

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

31-Mar-20 2:58

F-ES Sitecore wrote:
...says someone who has never worked with an agile team

Correction: says someone who has worked with more than a dozen agile teams.

If your team's doing it wrong, don't assume everyone else's is.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

F-ES Sitecore31-Mar-20 6:56

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

31-Mar-20 6:56

It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's reality. I've also worked with countless agile teams and this is always how it has been with testing. If you are saying you have worked with dozens of teams and they haven't had this issue then I find that hard to believe.

Mark_Wallace31-Mar-20 7:11

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

31-Mar-20 7:11

Believe what you like, but if testing is properly integrated as part of the sprint, and you've got professional testers and continuous testing, there is no reason (other than tests failing, which you can hardly blame on the testers, and which should be planned for) why testing should be a bottleneck.

Problems with sprints being improperly planned can't be blamed on the testers, either. Everyone knows that everything has to be tested, so no-one has any excuse if there isn't time for testing or if devs are twiddling their thumbs waiting for tests.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

F-ES Sitecore31-Mar-20 7:14

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

31-Mar-20 7:14

I explained in my reply to the OP why testing becomes a bottleneck. The fact that this article was written in the first place is because testing becomes a bottleneck. Again I'm not saying what is right or wrong, I'm just saying what happens in the real world, something these "advice" articles never address.

F-ES Sitecore31-Mar-20 2:04

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

31-Mar-20 2:04

This article exemplifies one of the problems with agile. All of the advice given for "real" problems is theoretical, it doesn't work in the real world with real people. The advice in this article would work if you have a team of developers, some of who are in charge of testing, but that is never the case. In the real world testers are people that have fallen into the job with no real technical expertise, certainly no programming skills. Obviously that's not always the case, in my career I have seen one or two testers that got into writing automated tests but it's definitely the exception and not the norm.

So you have a developer that develops, then while the testers are testing the developer works on the next ticket, then at the end of the sprint all development is done and the devs do nothing while the testers are testing. If you want to solve this problem then don't give advice on what testers can be doing, that's tackling it from the wrong direction as testers can rarely even tie their own shoes....you need to give advice on what developers can be doing while testers are testing.

Mark_Wallace31-Mar-20 5:32

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

31-Mar-20 5:32

So don't hire testers who can't create automated tests.

It's a major part of the job, so why on Earth hire people who can't do it?

You might as well hire devs who don't know any programming languages (e.g. straight from university).

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

F-ES Sitecore31-Mar-20 7:11

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

31-Mar-20 7:11

Mark_Wallace wrote:
So don't hire testers who can't create automated tests.

That's just not practical, the majority of testers can't.

Let me guess though...all the testers you know are also coders Roll eyes | :rolleyes:

Mark_Wallace31-Mar-20 7:21

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

31-Mar-20 7:21

F-ES Sitecore wrote:
Let me guess though...all the testers you know are also coders

Some, but by no means all. they're just people who are good at their job -- you know, the kind of people that you give jobs to.

If you're working with testers (and maybe planners, from the looks of it) who can't do the job, either get 'em trained up or get 'em transferred to jobs they can do.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

F-ES Sitecore31-Mar-20 7:45

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

31-Mar-20 7:45

Again you're talking about best-case scenarios. Obviously if you can hire nothing but the top talent then you have less problems...who doesn't want to do that? I'm talking about the real world though, which is why a lot of the "advice" given on agile isn't much use, as it ignores how things really are.

Mark_Wallace31-Mar-20 8:26

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

31-Mar-20 8:26

I didn't say "top talent". If you don't hire people who are competent to do the job they are hired to do, you've got no right to complain when they don't do it.

I don't see having competent staff as a "best-case scenario"; I see it as "business as usual".

And I'm somewhat dumbfounded that you can think otherwise.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

F-ES Sitecore31-Mar-20 8:49

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

31-Mar-20 8:49

I'd say testers that can do automated tests are "top talent", yes, as the vast majority can't. Again I'm talking about the real world here.

Mark_Wallace31-Mar-20 17:26

Re: Let’s make testing Agile, they said. Uh, what did they mean by that?

31-Mar-20 17:26

That ain't no real world you're living in. You must have done some really bad things, when you were alive.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

F-ES Sitecore1-Apr-20 1:06

Official tailored Swift for Windows support promised in 5.3

1-Apr-20 1:06

Mark_Wallace wrote:
That ain't no real world you're living in

Where not every employee has a huge range of skills? Ok boomer.

Kent Sharkey30-Mar-20 9:30

Re: Official tailored Swift for Windows support promised in 5.3

30-Mar-20 9:30

The Register[^]:
Swift on more platforms – provided you do not need a GUI

"And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate"

Dang, but their headline writer is so good. I'm jealous.

Mark_Wallace30-Mar-20 9:50

Re: Official tailored Swift for Windows support promised in 5.3

30-Mar-20 9:50

Kent Sharkey wrote:
Dang, but their headline writer is so good. I'm jealous.

Not so hot on accuracy in tech initialisms, though -- it's IDE, not GUI.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

Dan Neely31-Mar-20 2:22

Dan Neely

31-Mar-20 2:22

While I assume it's the case that the tool stack doesn't support anything more advanced in the way of an IDE than a texteditor syntax highlight plugin; the article itself is talking about the lack of a GUI library; because SwiftUI is a thin wrapper on top of native Apple controls; and doesn't have any sane porting path to Windows. (Just like there's no sane native way to do WinForms/WPF with .net on *NIX.)

Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius

Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt

Researchers create a device to capture terahertz waves to power electronics

Kent Sharkey30-Mar-20 9:15

Re: Researchers create a device to capture terahertz waves to power electronics

30-Mar-20 9:15

Slash Gear[^]:
According to the scientists, if these waves were harnessed, the concentrated power could potentially serve as an alternate energy source.

Is it getting hot in here, or are you charging your phone?

Weren't there "T-rays" in Flash Gordon or Quatermass or something?

Mark_Wallace30-Mar-20 9:47

Visual Studio 2019 version 16.6 Preview 2 brings new features your way

30-Mar-20 9:47

So all you need is to tape a 5lb block of graphene to your phone and add fifty quid's worth of electrics, and you're good to go!

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

Kent Sharkey30-Mar-20 9:00