Which is the best alternative for vb.net language ?

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Hi all,
I started programming 1 years ago. VB.Net is my main language. I am a hobby programmer. I have started sending few of my programs to my friends last week. They are using windows 7 and xp. They said that it asks for .net frame work to update in order to work my programs. They don't have internet access. I think i have wasted my one year time. Now, i need to study a new language which has these features.
1. Basic type syntax
2. It must be a RAD (Rapid Application Development) system.
3. Object oriented is preferred.
4. It won't ask for my clients any prerequisites like .net frame work
5. It should have best suport. Atleast an active one
6. I don't prefer platform dependency as i intended to make windows only programs.
7. It should be free
I have googled and found some results, but they were either inactive or buggy. Like QBasic, Jabaco(its not free), RapidQ, WXbasic, xBasic.
So can anybody help me to find a language with these features ? Thanks in advance.
PS: My other languages of interest - AutoIt (Very good, but not OOP), Python (Very fun to work with it, but NO VISUAL GUI making. We need to write code for our GUI like in 1970s. )

Posted 28-Sep-15 2:56am

Vinod Kc

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Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov 28-Sep-15 9:34am

What you want (more exactly, what you think you want) is something pretty bad. And something pretty bad cannot be the best. I suggest you keep learning computing and the culture associated with that. You hardly can expect it to become perfect, but at least you may eventually stop wasting your time for something like Basic. And remember: if you want to get something which should be exactly what you want, you will have to develop it yourself.
—SA

F-ES Sitecore 28-Sep-15 9:38am

The problem isn't the language but your clients. .net comes installed on Windows these days doesn't it? And they don't have access to the net to download the framework? Mmmm.....not people I'd even want to work with.

Vinod Kc 28-Sep-15 9:43am

If my client has access to internet but what about they don't want to download such a giant framework ?. I only expect microsoft to give an option for combining the giant frame work files to my installer so that my client won't bothered anymore.

Richard Deeming 28-Sep-15 9:49am

There's no need to download the framework, so long as you stick to the version that ships with the OS:
What version of the .NET Framework is included in what version of the OS?[^]

Vinod Kc 28-Sep-15 9:54am

Thanks for the reply. So you mean, when i start making a project, i need to use the lowest frame work version if i am aiming xp users. Right ?

Richard Deeming 28-Sep-15 10:00am

You need to use the lowest version you can reasonably expect your users to have installed, or send them the offline setup for the version you're using.

Bear in mind that XP doesn't support version 4.5 or higher; if you have users with XP, then you can't use anything above 4.0, even if you can send them the setup.

Vinod Kc 28-Sep-15 10:08am

Apart from what vesion xp can afford, i need to know, what version xp have.

Richard Deeming 28-Sep-15 10:12am

From the link in my previous comment:

Windows XP Home and Professional:
* SP1 includes .NET Framework 1.0 + SP2 in the Additional Components folder on the installation CD.
* SP2 and higher includes .NET Framework 1.1 + SP1 in the Additional Components folder on the installation CD.

Other programs might have required later versions of .NET, so your users might have a newer version installed.

Philippe Mori 28-Sep-15 22:39pm

Well, since XP is not supported anymore, you should probably ignore that OS. If you really want to support XP, then either .NET 2.0 or 4.0 client profile might be good options.

Vinod Kc 28-Sep-15 9:40am

@Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov, I don't like {} using languages. I like to make simple applications. Anyhow, thanks for your reply

Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov 28-Sep-15 13:08pm

I also don't like using them. I think it was a great stupidity of C, borrowed by two many other languages. But what can you do? If you want to be active in industry, you have to use some of them, even if you prefer some other language. No, not using Basic style, anyway. You may like the style of Algol-Ada-Pascal, so you can use wonderful open-source, multi-platform Free Pascal, with RAD and its own multi-platform UI layer provided with also open-source IDE.
Or you can go with Python style languages.
—SA

Vinod Kc 28-Sep-15 13:16pm

No.. i never go for python. It is easy but not easy for develop a gui. It will drag me to 1970 style programming. Complete blindness. If you write code for a button and place it in an imaginary position. And after run it once, you will realize that it is a wrong position. And you change the pos and again run. What a pity ? I have Lazarus. But pascal's syntax make me weird feeling. Anyhow, it is a good option.

Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov 28-Sep-15 13:22pm

Sure, I understand about Python. I only mean its indentation-based syntax. This is not just Python, that style.

I think I know what you may really like. Please see Solution 1. And, in contrast to Basic, this is something really serious and scientifically based. All you requirements are satisfied, and a lot more.

Besides... do you really think just one language would be enough? Real understanding of things will really take some dozen of different languages, like it or not.

—SA

Patrice T 28-Sep-15 10:09am

Wouldn't it be simpler to distribute the .NET framework needed to your client ?

Vinod Kc 28-Sep-15 12:27pm

My program weighs 1 MB or below 1 MB. Frame work weighs 100 MB + i think.

Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov 28-Sep-15 13:25pm

This is not a serious argument. With framework, all applications weight much less. And the OS without .NET quickly go out of circulation. CLR implementation is not just .NET. On many platforms, you can use Mono, another CLR implementation; .NET applications (accurately created in a compatible ways, of course) run without recompilation on Mono.
—SA

Patrice T 28-Sep-15 13:36pm

You have to send it only once.
And apps without framework will be much bigger.

3 solutions

Solution 1

You are asking for quite a lot here: Still supported, OO design, no .NET

Have you looked at native C++?
It's not rapid development, and it's not Basic syntax, but...if you want Basic syntax then you are stuck with Basic. And with the exception of the .NET version, that's pretty much dead as far as support goes!

Posted 28-Sep-15 3:28am

OriginalGriff

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Vinod Kc 28-Sep-15 9:47am

Hi @OriginalGriff, THanks for the reply. I hate languages which uses '{}'. And i don't care if i stuck with basic. Because, i didn't want to work for an MNC. I am coding for my own happiness and my own interests.

Solution 3

Hi all,
I have found a program called WideStudio for RAD programming in Python, Ruby, Perl, C++. It is made by a group pf Japanese programmers. Strange UI. But i think i can something with it. Let me wet my feet in it.

Posted 29-Sep-15 2:10am

Vinod Kc

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Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov · Accepted Answer · 2015-09-28T07:20:00

Solution 2

Please see my comment on Free Pascal. From your comments, I suspect this is what you may like. There is a huge culture (anti-curly-braces culture, by the way) behind it: Algol, then Wirth's Pascal, Modula, Ada (most important step), Borland's Turbo Pascal, Object Pascal, Delphi (major .NET predecessor, by the way) and, finally, modern open-source, multi-platform Free Pascal, with RAD and multi-platform UI. There are many highly qualified and cultured developers using such tools and the language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Pascal[^],
http://www.freepascal.org/[^],
IDE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_%28IDE%29[^],
http://www.lazarus-ide.org/[^].

Please don't take me wrong: I also hate those '{ }' and a lot many other things; and I understand the need for much clearer syntax, so what?

Worst thing you can do is going for Basic syntax. Even though VB.NET became a decent language, it's for .NET, which you may not like. Worse, serious programmers don't take VB programmers seriously. And Basic will hardly be officially standardized, even if the reasons can be considered as social. It was created as a mercy to the amateur developers (or make a trap for them), and, despite its progress, will hardly be fully respected, fairly or not. Besides, if you lean something seriously, you will probably understand that Basic is nothing really good.

As to BASIC, I think it's useful to read this:

Edsger W. Dijkstra told us:
It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.

See: How do we tell truths that might hurt?.

—SA

Posted 28-Sep-15 7:20am

Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov

Updated 28-Sep-15 8:27am

v2

Comments

Vinod Kc 28-Sep-15 13:34pm

@SA, Pascal in Lazarus is in my list. If i didn't get a better result, then i will choose pascal. Now i am doing my little project in AutoIt. You can simply make anything with it. But it is not supporting OOP. It has a GUI designer. And you know, we can play with WIn APIs easily in AutoIt.

Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov 28-Sep-15 13:44pm

I hardly can imaging that you can get anything better with your views and requirements, but... who knows?

"Not supporting OOP" is not just untrue, this is a big outrageous lie. Object Pascal (fully supported by Free Pascal) was one of the earliest implementation of very advanced, true OOP, in a way, more advanced than C++ (say, interfaces are fully and directly implemented in Object Pascal, but not in C++), and, in one important aspect, a lore more advanced than .NET (CLI). This single aspect is the fully-fledged powerful meta-type concept. It is very advanced in Object Pascal and .NET (CLI) totally lacks it, even though it has advanced reflection, but still not enough to make metatypes. Another important Object Pascal feature is two kinds of virtual methods: "virtual" and "dynamic". (Please see my article Dynamic Method Dispatcher).

Object Pascal is the OOP heaven, for your information.

Anyway, will you accept my answer formally? I think I put some convincing considerations and the idea is really good.

—SA

Vinod Kc 28-Sep-15 14:10pm

I think you are mistaken. I said AutoIt is not supporting OOP. Not pascal. I know pascal is a good language and now i am making a test program in lazarus for testing its options to make an exe.

Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov 28-Sep-15 14:30pm

Listen carefully: Object Pascal is a true object-oriented language, period.
I said exactly this and nothing else. For example, ANSI Pascal is not OOP, and it's a pretty miserable thing. I'm not talking about it, or about AutoIt, or anything else. And I'm talking about significant things.
—SA

Vinod Kc 28-Sep-15 14:21pm

A simple Hello world program contains a button and a texbox sized 14.5 MB in Lazarus.

Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov 28-Sep-15 14:30pm

You are looking in a wrong way. This criterion is not serious. And you can use packages reused by many applications.
—SA

Maciej Los 28-Sep-15 14:05pm

Oooopppss... "a mercy to the amateur developers" - it really hurts! Even me. Visual Basic was my first programming language, then i started interest with C++, C#, Java. Does it mean that programmers who want to start learning basic-based-langauge shouldn't even try?
BTW: 5ed!

Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov 28-Sep-15 14:23pm

Well, what can I do? I do believe that it was created for amateurs, at least this is how the purpose of BASIC (acronym: Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) was formulated. And I think that it is not taken seriously is just the fact, no matter how good it may become later. These are some social settings which have nothing to do with my own opinion. Sorry if you feel being hurt, but you really should not be. Why? Some waste more time in their life, some less; this is unavoidable.

Now, trying or not trying BASIC? Now, it's a matter of my own opinion: it's better not to start with BACIS, and better not with C or C++. It's important to use pointers or at least references, no matter how. I'm not along though. Edsger W. Dijkstra told us: It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.

Please see: How do we tell truths that might hurt?. Note the name of the book. Does it hurt or not, what is the importance of it if it comes to telling the truth or not?

—SA

Maciej Los 28-Sep-15 15:03pm

"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." - i disagree with this opinion. Each opinion is based on statistics. It does not mean that the greater number of persons is right. I do believe you know what i mean.

The truth is that VB sometimes is being a limitation for me.

Cheers, Maciej

Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov 28-Sep-15 16:06pm

I never say I think exactly the same as Dijkstra. And you are right about "greater number", which is called argumentum ad populum ("Twenty trillion flies can't be wrong"); see also argumentum ad verecundiam.

Just think about yourself. If you make just one exclusion from this "Dijkstra law", my respect.

—SA

Maciej Los 28-Sep-15 16:23pm

Sergey, i'm not even trying to tell that you think the same as Dijkstra. I know you're very wise person and very gentle in your opinion.
I did not get Dijkstra's words personally... I wanted to say that Dijkstra's rule is not true. This is NOT mathematic's rule. This is opinion.

Thank you for your valuable comments.

With respect, Maestro
Maciej

Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov 28-Sep-15 17:09pm

I perfectly understand that. I agree with what you say. And this opinion should not be taken literally, but rather "artistically" ("poetically"), then you can understand the rational grain in it and the drive.
Thank you.
—SA

Wendelius 28-Sep-15 16:18pm

Nice answer!

Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov 28-Sep-15 16:21pm

Thank you, Mika.
—SA

Which is the best alternative for vb.net language ?

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Which is the best alternative for vb.net language ?

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